[kwlug-disc] Devuan, a distro without systemd

[Khalid Baheyeldin]

There are many problems with systemd.

It is not simply that 'we' hate it because it is new, nor because it
is different.

The issues are outlined here:

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd

To summarize:

- It was initially created to have a better syntax (for the newbie
sysadmins who do not know shell script), but also add dependency
management in startup. These were good goals. If those were the only
goals, then they can be done using something else such as uselessd
(http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/, now dormant).

- Over time, systemd started suffering from whatever it is that made
it morph in what we have now. It started gobbling up services that an
init system should not do, such as DNS, Login.

- Systemd violates the principle of do one thing and do it well, and
have the ability to string lego pieces into various things. Thing
about the might pipe, and you can cat output from whatever program to
sed then to something else. If I want to replace sed with awk, I am
free to do so without losing any functionality.

- Systemd is desktop centric in regards to devices being plugged in,
...etc. It is now a requirement of all three major desktop
environments: Gnome, KDE and XFCE. This long dependency chain is a bad
thing. If I want just A, I should not be forced to also have B to Z on
my system, with all the complexity, maintenance and security burden
that comes with it. And now because systemd helps with some aspects of
desktop machines, it is forced on us for servers too.

- Systemd logging is in a binary format, and when something fails, it
does not spit out what failed. You have to go execute commands to see
what failed. Often in two or more steps until you find what the issue
is. Things were simpler before that, and quicker to fix.

- All major distros have implemented systemd in a mandatory fashion,
not replaceable by any other alternative. There is no way to replace
systemd with some other init system, and that is why something like
Devuan was invented. I hate this 'force things on us' attitude with no
alternatives. Even the most divisive desktop wars did not do this, and
we have a choice (witness Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, ...etc.)

- The developers are oblivious to system needs, and often close issues
as "not a systemd problem". See a recent example here:

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/07/24/1558259/dns-lib-underscore-bug-bites-everyones-favorite-init-tool-blanks-netflix

- The code, like the developers, is immature, as opposed to sysvinit
which has been in production from the UNIX days. This, coupled with
the growing trend to encompass everything, leads to serious flaws,
like this one

https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/07/03/0343258/severe-systemd-bug-allowed-remote-code-execution-for-two-years

Even Linus, who tolerated systemd, is now pointing to flaws in it

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/07/15/0018221/in-which-linus-torvalds-makes-an-init-joke


On 7/24/17, Digimer <lists at alteeve.ca> wrote:
> If I can ask a broader question; What is it about avoiding systemd that
> is appealing? I know this can be a loaded question, and please
> understand I am genuinely curious.
>
> Personally speaking, I've been on sysvinit since rhl 5.2, and I totally
> understood the fear of losing so many years of experience and knowledge.
> Once I gave it a chance though, I've totally fallen in love with it. So
> I ask because I am curious what it is that people want in sysvinit,
> beyond familiarity?
>
> cheers,
>
> digimer
>
> On 2017-07-24 07:01 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
>> Devuan has all the software that's been re-compiled to work without
>> systemd. So, not everything is there, but it's quite functional.
>>
>> The biggest things I'm missing are
>>
>> 1) the KeepassX v2 client (KeepassX v0.43 is available, but no longer
>> compatible with my DB which got upgraded on other PCs)
>>
>> 2) the Nextcloud sync client, but that's not in the Debian repos
>> either. There are instructions to compile the Nextcloud sync client
>> from source, but I haven't done that (yet).
>>
>> The Devuan box is just a trial. I'm using it as my Podcast server, and
>> as a third screen for my laptop using Synergy. It doesn't get much of
>> a workout.
>>
>> --Bob.
>>
>>
>> On 2017-07-24 05:43 PM, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
>>> In another thread, Bob Jonkman wrote:
>>
>>>> Works for me on XFCE on Devuan...
>>
>>> How is Devuan working out?
>>
>>> Does it have all the repos that Debian has, or limited to a
>>> subset?
>>
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>>
>>
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>
> --
> Digimer
> Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.com/w/
> "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of
> Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent
> have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." - Stephen Jay Gould
>


-- 
Khalid M. Baheyeldin
2bits.com, Inc.
http://2bits.com
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