[kwlug-disc] Devuan, a distro without systemd

[Dan Siemon]

I'll take the other side.

systemd is great and something like it was long overdue. I don't have a
grey beard but I have used Linux as my desktop OS since '98 and have
also maintained production servers since that time.

Without going into too much detail, here some reasons to like systemd:
- Proper control of process shutdown. When systemd starts a daemon in a
cgroup it is in total control to ensure the daemon shuts down
completely.
- Sane system environments for services. When systemd starts a process,
the process gets a clean env, nothing leaks in from your current
environment.
- journalctl gives the ability to query logs in many ways. The journal
annoyed me at the start too but now not being able to query logs seems
quaint.
- Declarative unit files are much easier to use and less bug prone than
shell scripts. They are also more portable across distros.
- Easy way to use security features like secomp[1] (simple directive in
the unit file).

There are things I don't like but from my PoV, systemd is a clear
improvement.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seccomp

On Mon, 2017-07-24 at 20:29 -0400, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
> There are many problems with systemd.
> 
> It is not simply that 'we' hate it because it is new, nor because it
> is different.
> 
> The issues are outlined here:
> 
> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd
> 
> To summarize:
> 
> - It was initially created to have a better syntax (for the newbie
> sysadmins who do not know shell script), but also add dependency
> management in startup. These were good goals. If those were the only
> goals, then they can be done using something else such as uselessd
> (http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/, now dormant).
> 
> - Over time, systemd started suffering from whatever it is that made
> it morph in what we have now. It started gobbling up services that an
> init system should not do, such as DNS, Login.
> 
> - Systemd violates the principle of do one thing and do it well, and
> have the ability to string lego pieces into various things. Thing
> about the might pipe, and you can cat output from whatever program to
> sed then to something else. If I want to replace sed with awk, I am
> free to do so without losing any functionality.
> 
> - Systemd is desktop centric in regards to devices being plugged in,
> ...etc. It is now a requirement of all three major desktop
> environments: Gnome, KDE and XFCE. This long dependency chain is a
> bad
> thing. If I want just A, I should not be forced to also have B to Z
> on
> my system, with all the complexity, maintenance and security burden
> that comes with it. And now because systemd helps with some aspects
> of
> desktop machines, it is forced on us for servers too.
> 
> - Systemd logging is in a binary format, and when something fails, it
> does not spit out what failed. You have to go execute commands to see
> what failed. Often in two or more steps until you find what the issue
> is. Things were simpler before that, and quicker to fix.
> 
> - All major distros have implemented systemd in a mandatory fashion,
> not replaceable by any other alternative. There is no way to replace
> systemd with some other init system, and that is why something like
> Devuan was invented. I hate this 'force things on us' attitude with
> no
> alternatives. Even the most divisive desktop wars did not do this,
> and
> we have a choice (witness Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, ...etc.)
> 
> - The developers are oblivious to system needs, and often close
> issues
> as "not a systemd problem". See a recent example here:
> 
> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/07/24/1558259/dns-lib-underscore-
> bug-bites-everyones-favorite-init-tool-blanks-netflix
> 
> - The code, like the developers, is immature, as opposed to sysvinit
> which has been in production from the UNIX days. This, coupled with
> the growing trend to encompass everything, leads to serious flaws,
> like this one
> 
> https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/07/03/0343258/severe-systemd-bug-all
> owed-remote-code-execution-for-two-years
> 
> Even Linus, who tolerated systemd, is now pointing to flaws in it
> 
> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/07/15/0018221/in-which-linus-torv
> alds-makes-an-init-joke
> 
> 
> On 7/24/17, Digimer <lists at alteeve.ca> wrote:
> > If I can ask a broader question; What is it about avoiding systemd
> > that
> > is appealing? I know this can be a loaded question, and please
> > understand I am genuinely curious.
> > 
> > Personally speaking, I've been on sysvinit since rhl 5.2, and I
> > totally
> > understood the fear of losing so many years of experience and
> > knowledge.
> > Once I gave it a chance though, I've totally fallen in love with
> > it. So
> > I ask because I am curious what it is that people want in sysvinit,
> > beyond familiarity?
> > 
> > cheers,
> > 
> > digimer
> > 
> > On 2017-07-24 07:01 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
> > > Devuan has all the software that's been re-compiled to work
> > > without
> > > systemd. So, not everything is there, but it's quite functional.
> > > 
> > > The biggest things I'm missing are
> > > 
> > > 1) the KeepassX v2 client (KeepassX v0.43 is available, but no
> > > longer
> > > compatible with my DB which got upgraded on other PCs)
> > > 
> > > 2) the Nextcloud sync client, but that's not in the Debian repos
> > > either. There are instructions to compile the Nextcloud sync
> > > client
> > > from source, but I haven't done that (yet).
> > > 
> > > The Devuan box is just a trial. I'm using it as my Podcast
> > > server, and
> > > as a third screen for my laptop using Synergy. It doesn't get
> > > much of
> > > a workout.
> > > 
> > > --Bob.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 2017-07-24 05:43 PM, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
> > > > In another thread, Bob Jonkman wrote:
> > > > > Works for me on XFCE on Devuan...
> > > > How is Devuan working out?
> > > > Does it have all the repos that Debian has, or limited to a
> > > > subset?
> > > > _______________________________________________ kwlug-disc
> > > > mailing
> > > > list kwlug-disc at kwlug.org
> > > > http://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > kwlug-disc mailing list
> > > kwlug-disc at kwlug.org
> > > http://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org
> > > 
> > 
> > --
> > Digimer
> > Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.com/w/
> > "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of
> > Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal
> > talent
> > have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." - Stephen Jay
> > Gould
> > 
> 
>